1. >The funniest and most extreme reaction isn't Smith's

>Oddly, Smith is actually more tempered in his comments

Why do you assume Kevin Smith is the one that is going to have the extreme reaction? Everything I have ever seen him say, whether in print or interview, has always been thoughtful and intelligent. Just because he drops the F-bomb here and there doesn't mean that everything else he is saying is garbage. He would be the last person from which I would expect an extreme reaction.

I have seen Smith, in person, taunted about his weight, given crap about the comics he has written, and given crap about his movies and actor friends. Those would be touchy subject to just about anyone. Think about it. Your weight? The quality of your work? Your friends? He did not loose his cool, and reacted thoughtfully and with humor. Even when the late Gene Shalit rudely and loudly left a screening of Clerks II, Smith called him out in a way that I found very well thought-out, and quite funny. And after Shalit's passing, Smith felt guilty about his comments and wrote a very insightful blog entry about the whole thing. All this, even though he had been right on the money about Mr. Shalit and, in my opinion, no apology was needed.

Ms. Rappe, can you back up your comments with something Smith has said or done that stands out above and beyond the smart, funny, self-deprecating behavior that he routinely exhibits in his rather open-book life?

Posted at 10:24AM on Aug 28th 2008 by Jason Jackson

2. Gene Shalit is still alive. It was Joel Seigel.

Posted at 12:06PM on Aug 28th 2008 by Coln Boyd

3. Settle down, Francis. I don't remember reading anything nasty about Mr. Smith in this piece.

Posted at 12:16PM on Aug 28th 2008 by Scott Weinberg

4. Dude, calmness -- it's a fair observation, especially considering Smith's history with the Superman franchise. Let's not forget he's dealt with clueless suits on this topic before, and that his experience working on Superman years ago is now practically a standup routine he regularly delivers at speaking engagements. And how are "funny" and "extreme" insults in this context?

Also, it was Joel Siegel who walked out of Clerks II.

Posted at 12:08PM on Aug 28th 2008 by Nick

5. That is awesome that I typed Gene Shalit instead of Joel Siegel. I guess it was mandatory for morning-show film reviewer to have a mustache when I was growing up!

I still stand behind my comments. Smith's Superman story is legendary in the comic community, considering the Wild Wild West tie-in with the giant spider. Still, I have never seen Kevin Smith flip out, and he was largely complimentary of Bryan Singer's underrated movie.

Posted at 1:32PM on Aug 28th 2008 by Jason Jackson

6. As everyone has pointed out, I never had any intention of insulting Smith.

I think he's awesome, I've seen him in person numerous times. I know what kind of guy he is, but if you were to leave all the above quotes anonymous, I would have guessed Golden's quote actually came from Smith. He's always well spoken, and he's always blunt.

I don't think that's a reason to practically put me on trial...

Posted at 3:53PM on Aug 28th 2008 by Elisabeth

7. "Ultimately, I think Waid's the man who speaks for the majority of us in arguing that you can make Superman's world darker, but not the character, who's "a creature of hope."

Elisabeth, that's EXACTLY what I said in response to your first post on the subject.

"No one seems to have read the original article slowly enough"

And I said that was the problem as well.

Jon Hamm for Superman FTW!

Posted at 11:03AM on Aug 28th 2008 by Jonathan

8. It's amazing that the entire world had the same reading problem and reaction to the piece, isn't it? And here I thought I was just a really bad writer -- but at least Kevin Smith and Christopher Golden are as bad as I am.

Posted at 3:53PM on Aug 28th 2008 by Elisabeth

9. Jeff Robinov and Thomas Tull should read the following stories:

Action Comics #775
"What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?"

Superman: The Greatest Stories Ever Told, Vol. 1

Grant Morrison's All Star Superman

Kingdom Come

Posted at 11:21AM on Aug 28th 2008 by Eli

10. Ican live with a darker world, not a darker Superman. Tom Welling should definitely be Superman in the reboot. The dude's earned it, plus he brings a huge fanbase with him. Get a capable director who wont put his ego above the character and source material and you've got Box Office gold!

Posted at 11:29AM on Aug 28th 2008 by brian

11. I actually agree with the idea that Superman needs to go darker. Singer tried to make a bright shiny movie where we would all marvel at how incredible Superman is, and to a certain extent he suceeded at that. But what he didn't realize was that because of that friendly world there was no drama, nothing that we felt was worthy of Supermans powers. His true adversary in the movie doesn't hatch his "diabolical" scheme until like an hour and a half into the movie. So for the rest of the time we see Superman fetching cats out of trees and stopping bank robberies...not exactly the kind of predicament that requires someone who can fly into outer space and lift up islands. To me, Metropolis needs to become a darker, dirtier, grungier city where things happen that the average human can't take care of, and therefore it requires something extraordinary to stem the flow of crime/evil/whatever. This isn't 1940, or even 1980 anymore. We're not going to be blown away by the mere fact that we can see someone who has super powers on a movie screen. We need a reason for him to have those powers, something that he is striving against, and in the next movie it better not be a real estate scam.

Posted at 11:36AM on Aug 28th 2008 by Kevin

12. A Dark Superman is a very stupid idea. Superman is also a lot more fantasy driven than Batman so making it like a gritty crime noir-ish movie would be suicide. Superman is not a dark character. Metropolis is not a dark city, at least not as dark as Gotham is.

Posted at 12:57PM on Aug 28th 2008 by brien

13. In Batman we have our dark avenger, in Spiderman our turmoil at being responsible for so much power, Iron Man for the fun and excess contrasted with obligation.

Superman stands for the best in all of us because he can be that way. I'd love to see him appear in a world that believes there is nothing magical or awe inspiring left to be seen.

I want them to invoke the feeling you would have if you saw a man fly. What would that mean to people in the world who saw that for the first time? Wouldn't the kids run and find red towels and tie them around their necks? Wouldn't it inspire people to help others in any way they can? I'd like to see that Superman movie.

Posted at 8:33PM on Aug 28th 2008 by maestro610

14. I agree with your point the other thing I would like to see Superman inspire at least at first is fear. Think about it people by nature are panicky they would naturally be people who would fear a being that powerful not to mention some people in the public eye would be guilty of fear mongering . This is until a greater threat appears that he fights off to gain their trust

Posted at 4:44PM on Sep 20th 2008 by Brandon Barbin

15. Metropolis and Gotham City are two completely different places. Much as are New York City and Chicago. Different. Each place requires a different kind of hero. Batman knew this all along. When Superman said he was "doing it wrong", Bats handed over the city. A week later Supes was done with Gotham - he knew it was not the place for him at all. He was man enough to admit he was wrong and now doesn't bother Batman, his friend, about that city at all.

A darker 'world'...? OK. That I can see. Metropolis is a shining example of urban development at its best, just as Superman is a shining example of heroism at its best. They deserve each other. But the rest of the world isn't so pretty. Neither Metropolis or Superman should "go dark". Rather, there should be some external influence that seeks to make them so.

That, my friends, is a job for Superman.

Take care,

Red Ronin

Posted at 7:02PM on Aug 31st 2008 by Red Ronin

16. i agree with Eli
action comics #775 would make an awesome movie
it is exactly what the studio guys are looking for
that would be the best 'DARK SUPERMAN' story-line

Posted at 11:40AM on Sep 1st 2008 by Areeb

17. It is just an opinion, but Superman Returns was awful. Re-booting is an excellent idea.

On the question of the article which is whether 'darkness' is the way to go or appropriate to Superman, I think we first have to examine what we mean.

For me, what is meant by 'darkness' in this context is not necessarily 'Sin City', multiple body counts, etc...

'Relevance' is closer, but what I think 'The Dark Knight' and 'Batman Begins' have, that most comic book movies do not have, is that as far as it is possible in the genre, we take the characters and what happens to them seriously.

And for that to be possible we have to be able to believe that things are not necessarily going to work out -- because that is the difference between the real world and the traditional comicbook universe. For people to find some relevance in a comicbook universe, they must be able to connect with the characters and believe that their experience, however different to their own, has something in common with their own -- notably that life is tough, and that it takes a significant effort to come out ahead. What makes Batman heroic is not a suit or his gizmos, its the triumph of his character in adversity, and how, as difficult as it sometimes is, he makes the right choices.

This is not something that is just appropriate or applicable to Batman. If comics are to be considered modern myths that have things to say about human experience and the real world, then it is the way we need to look at all comics.

The important caveat in the studio's statement is that this must take place within the bounds of the character, and that is obviously right, because we don't want revisionist histories and 'writing in.' But there is nothing wrong with delving a little deeper than the surface of characters.

So with that in mind, how 'dark' is Superman? Well, I'll leave it for you to decide, but his entire race no longer exists. Okay, they were destroyed by nature and their own hubris, but should that make him feel any better than a Holocaust survivor? If anything, it's going to feel worse, because he will wonder whether the same weaknesses reside in him, and it would be understandable if he had a problem with God and the universe, as people who experience loss in such circumstances often do. There is literally no one like him, so he is, excuse the expression, a 'super outsider', which is generally considered to be an excuse for dark brooding moments.

There is an American election soon, which is a serious thing, because for the next 4 years one of the candidates is going to be the most powerful man on earth. Well, in the DC universe Superman is more powerful than every single nation on the face of the planet put together. If he put his mind to it he could destroy the whole world.

And you know what they say about power, that it corrupts, and that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I'm not saying Superman is corrupt in any way; what I am saying is that the goodness that is so essential to his character is an achievement every bit as incredible as any physical feat he has ever performed -- more so, in fact, because it must take incredible effort, and that effort is what makes him a hero, not the fact that he can leap tall buildings, etc...

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. If you actually think about who Superman is, you find just as much darkness, inner struggle and turmoil as you do in Batman, if not more so.

I think the studio should get Nolan to do Superman, and that they should bring him in person into the Batman universe he has created, along the lines of Frank Miller's 'The Dark Knight', which I consider to be one of the greatest comic books ever written, and which the film has followed in a number of ways.

Posted at 10:03AM on Sep 29th 2008 by Jake West

18. One of the best comments yet on Superman -- well said, Jake. I think they ought to give the writing job to you!

Posted at 5:03AM on Sep 26th 2008 by Elisabeth